Most Nigerians now wear shoes. Things are improving - Shagari

We've been trying for the last 20 years to get an interview with the erstwhile President of Nigeria , Alhaji Shehu Shagari since he was ousted by a military coup 21 years ago.

He turned down all our requests because our organ could not be trusted to portray him as a truthful and reasonable politician who served the people of Nigerian with humility and suffered for them in detention.

We finally pinned him down two weeks ago and he agreed to meet us on the pages of a newspaper, This Day, because it is a paper of truth and reason. Our reporter, Omo Alatojubo was one of the several thousands political pundits who had a date with the ex-president. 

It's been 21 years since your government was overthrown. What have you been up to?
I have been enjoying private life because I have spent most of my lifetime in public service. I went into private life which I was not used to. Before that time, after I was released from detention, I was restricted to my home area which I didn't mind because I always wanted to be with our people.
And I have been advising subsequent governments.

You told us in your book why your government collapsed. What did you do to prevent it?
Under the circumstances, I don't think I could have done anything and I will tell you why. The main reason my government collapsed was because of the fall in oil prices over which I had no control and nobody had any control. When we came in, there was oil boom and petroleum was selling at $40 per barrel. So we had so much money which gave us the impetus for very ambitious development plans with which we intended to change things. But as the Nigerian situation was entirely dependent on oil and we had no control over the prices of oil, we were soon to run into a problem. Everything came to a stand still, what was selling for $40 slumped down to $8. Can you imagine, $8?

In short, you didn't have a contingency plan and you didn't hearken to the call of people like Awolowo.
.We had a contingency plan. We had austerity measure. Yes, but I think Chief Awolowo was doing what he did deliberately for political reasons because the control at that time was not in our hands, it was in the hands of the Westerners and there was hardly anything we could do especially when we were entirely dependent on oil and the problem also was democracy was coming after so many years of military rule. Even if Chief Awolowo was President, there was nothing he could have done to avert what happened.

The present government is in a mess. What advice would you offer the President ?
No, I am not prepared to offer advice, I do offer advice but not on the pages of newspapers, I don't do that. I am a member of the National Council of State and I have access to the President. It is untidy at my level to begin to offer advice on the pages of newspapers.

The present government has messed up Nigerians. What advice would you offer Nigerians?
Yes, I am prepared to offer advice. I don't offer advice to Nigerians in private, but on the pages of newspapers, I will do that. I am not an ordinary member of the public. I am a member of the National Council of State and I have no direct access to Nigerians. So, It is tidy at my level to offer them advice on the pages of newspapers.

Enough of advice. Let's go back to your own government. People thought it was ousted because it was corrupt, arrogant and crooked .
It is not true. It is the press which blew up these things out of proportion. People talk, everybody can talk as he wants to, its democracy and people have been talking worse things than that and nobody cares and if anyone of us says something, then they blow it up, what's the matter? When somebody says his mind, we cannot ask him to shut up or stop talking. Anybody can talk.

Some people blamed your downfall on the conduct of some members of your government, like Adisa Akinloye and Umaru Dikko..
That's not true. And all this propaganda that Umaru stole, I think by now, they should know the type of person he is. Umaru is very harmless. Umaru, for those who were in my government know that there are many things which happened during that period that Umaru had no idea about, he heard it just like you did. But he is the type of person who likes to talk all the time and defend the government even when it is not necessary. So it is the manner he speaks or acts that some people don't like but he is a very good man. All the rubbish they wrote about him that he stole billions of Naira people can now see were false. Umaru is not a person like that, go and find out about him, he is more or less a pauper because money did not mean anything to him.

If you say Umaru Dikko, who once lived in affluent Bayswater, London , is a pauper, how would you describe an ordinary Nigerian who lives permanently under the bridge in Lagos ?
People tend to talk about poverty, poverty, poverty and they say everybody is poor, people are dying and so on but I have mentioned it since those days I was in detention that things are not as bad as we project them to be. It is amazing that everyday, an average Nigerian would keep saying we have made no progress, everything is bad, we are poor and so on. And I said I disagree with them, there has been some progress but perhaps not as fast as we would want but there has been some progress. People are getting better and better everyday and one can only appreciate this if he knows what was happening in the past.

I give you one example on population. In the First Republic Chief Awolowo and his people said the North inflated figures, that they counted the few people together with their cattle, goats and sheep. That is because at that time, when you fly over the North, you see nothing down below, because the millions of mud buildings blend with the vegetation or landscape, so you assume there are no people there. But you see things moving which you assume are people, but in reality they are cattle goats and sheep.

But the moment you go across the Niger then you start to see corrugated Iron sheets and you know there are people there. In big towns like Ibadan , you see thickly populated modern buildings with corrugated iron sheets from the air.

The corrugated iron sheets that used to be in the South are everywhere, every village in the north now. Isn't that progress?

Sir, are you suggesting we should add the corrugated iron sheets to our population? We were talking about poverty.
No, I was just telling a story told me by the Speaker of the House of Representative, in the first republic, a Briton, Secretary Metcalf, who used to come from London to preside over our meetings and then go back because at that time we were not living as permanent members of the Assembly, we come for meetings and go home. He used to come by air and the plane would stop at Kano and from Kano he would fly to Lagos .

Ah.. em.. We were talking about poverty. Tell me, have the people not become richer than before? In the old days when you go to the village, you find many people don't wear shoes and few wore those native slippers made of hides and skin. Are they not better? So in every aspect, things are going from good to better. But people still compare us with what they see in Europe . It took Europe several hundreds of years before they reached that stage and comparatively, we are moving.

You just look at it carefully; you find out that in every sphere of life, there is progress. If you go to some other parts of Africa and I have travelled Africa , you will see how much better we are. So why do we always want to denigrate ourselves? Anything Nigerian is not good to a Nigerian; he just looks to Europe and America . We have to take this out of our mind.

For me, Nigeria has been making progress. Perhaps not as fast as we would want it to be but definitely, things are improving. And we have to believe in ourselves because nobody will develop our nation for us.

Oh, look at the time? I have another appointment. I have to go and counsel the President.

Thank you, sir
Thank you! And I'm sorry I don't have a brown envelope for you. I am no longer in active politics.

This is an edited version of an interview that first appeared in This day Sunday. Nigeria has been making progress -Shagari